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[Pete The Greek]

PM condemns Boxing Day shooting

TORONTO (CP) - A Boxing Day shootout that killed an innocent teenaged bystander has left Toronto residents wondering how much worse the city's violence can get after as many as 15 young people shot at each other on a busy street packed with holiday shoppers.

Police, politicians and the people of Toronto reacted with shock and revulsion Tuesday after learning more about the incident that saw a 15-year-old girl become the city's 78th murder victim of the year. She was shot during a shopping trip at around 5:15 p.m. while surrounded by countless other people. The shootings occurred outside a shoe store and across the street from Sam The Record Man and Future Shop stores, two of the biggest Boxing Day attractions on Yonge Street.

Six others were also injured and one person was in critical condition.

Prime Minister Paul Martin said he was horrified and called the shootings an outrage while Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said the girl was a victim of "the insanity of guns." A Toronto detective declared police would respond to a city that had lost its innocence.

But condolences and promises of fighting crime - particularly gun violence - did little to ease the worries of people shocked by the brazenness of the shootout.

The crime scene remained taped off Tuesday morning with dozens of evidence markers littered across the sidewalk and all over the road. Despite the fact that many people were off work Tuesday, few were walking near the normally busy stretch of Yonge Street.

Those who were on hand stood behind the police tape and tried to grasp the reality of what had happened a day earlier.

Both city residents and outsiders reacted.

Thirty-seven-year-old Joseph Gelgec, a tourist from Germany, said he couldn't believe such a violent act of crime occurred just steps outside his hotel. It changed his perception of Canada, he said.

"I'm surprised, I never thought things like that could happen here in Toronto. I'm very scared, it's a strange feeling," he said of the quiet, tense atmosphere surrounding the crime scene.

Twenty-one-year-old Emily Trenbeth said she had mixed emotions as she stumbled into the roadblock, near where she works. She said she wasn't surprised by the shooting since they've become so prevalent in the city but seeing things first hand made her feel something different.

"Everywhere you go you're going to find crime. It's unfortunate that it had to happen on Boxing Day at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, but it happens," she said.

"But this scares me a little bit more because I love Yonge Street and I love walking up and down here. I'll definitely be a little more careful but I will still walk up and down here," she said.

The escalating violence and lack of respect for other people is driving people out of the city, said a long-time Torontonian who was watching police at work at the crime scene.

"It seems every day when you open (a newspaper) or turn on the radio something has happened overnight," said the 56-year-old man who asked that his name not be published. "It's just terrible."

So far police have arrested two people but investigators are still trying to determine if they played any role in the shootings. They have not been charged.

The new information to emerge from police Tuesday was detail about the nature of the incident.

Police say two groups of young people in their late teens to early 20s got in an argument and began shooting. As many as 10 to 15 people were involved in the shootout. A handgun has been seized and police say they believe more than one gun was used.

Two other brazen shootings have taken place this year in the same Dundas Square area, which is popular with tourists but not usually known for violence.

On a Saturday night in late July, a man was fatally shot in a crowd of about 1,000 people despite a heavy police presence.

And on a Sunday afternoon in April, three people - including two bystanders - were wounded after a gunman opened fire on another man on the same stretch of street where Monday's shootings occurred.

Of the 78 murders in Toronto this year, a record 52 were by gunfire. The city set a record for murders in 1991, with 88.

I am fed up with hearing quotes from Ottawa.  F&*&ing do something you f*&*ing idiots like change the laws.  Use a gun = your ass is in jail for over 25 years regardless of how old your are.  Use a gun to kill some one, time to introduce the death penalty. Canada customs priority should be to prevent guns from entering Canada, not tax people on retail goods bought. Also instead of sending our troops to some shit hole of a country across the world, use them in areas like Jane and Finch. A punk will think twice to use a handgun against an armed soldier who is trained. Ottawa worry about Canada's problems for a change.  

The possibilty of getting killed at 5:15 PM while doing shopping really pisses me off.  Someone's family has had their life just ruined during the holidays for no reason.  Ottawa knew about this problem and yet they don't do anything about it.  I can imagine doing an environmental inspection in broad day light and getting killed by some dickless punk for no reason.  And the sad part of this story, it made it across the world. I saw it first on the Greek news feed from Greece via the dish. Why the hell would anybody want to come to Toronto if this keeps up.

[Jon S.]

I was down at that very intersection just 4 hours earlier. Man, am I shell-shocked. While I don't agree with the death penalty, I do believe in 25-year-life sentences and I also believe in stricter gun control.

Ugh... it's all too horrible. What has come over Toronto?!?

[Raptor]

It's on my walk home.  

I don't know how the city got that bad, but I really don't think any one has any idea how to fix it. I don't think that the government can do anything about it. Do you think that people who are willing to draw firearms and shoot into a holiday crowd are afraid of death or getting caught?

I have to get the hell out of Toronto before it kills me. With the criminals getting by immigration, the gangs and the poverty, you might as well move to Chicago.

Maybe making TO its own province would help. Maybe then they could have some control over what and who gets into the place, and the funding to enforce laws.

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[Realboss]

It saddens me to think that if these criminals go to jail for this hanus crime, they will be out in six months.  Look at the loser that killed the Police officer in Quebec-he was just released from prison on gun related charges and was given permission to own one (for hunting purposes?).
And in my opinion Paul Martin's government has no right to speak on this issue now when they had plenty of time to address these problems. Too little a little too late.  T.O. isn't a bad place but some of the people are and most young punks know they are only going to get a slap on the wrist.

[Stealth Viper]

While I certainly agree that something must be done, I don't think banning/outlawing guns would prevent this kind of thing.

Do you think the guns used in this shooting were legal/registered? No way. I'm sure they were bought on the black market/smuggled in.  All the laws in the world won't stop that.

What needs to be done,is like Pete said, implement a "0 tolerance" law regarding weapons. You use a weapon in a crime, it's a felony - minimum sentence of 25 years.

Mind you, like I said - I seriously doubt such a law would stop the gang shootings. I really don't think they care about laws - if they did, do you think they'd open fire on the public? Exactly.

I think a 0 tolerance rule regarding gangs need to be in place. Make gangs illegal.  Get a couple hundred officers, and start arresting gang members - just for being in a gang. I'm willing to bet we'd see a lot of additional charges (guns, drugs) being laid after they are arrested. Not only that, but a lot of the gang members are "imports" from other countries that can be/should be deported quickly.

[Pete The Greek]

The cops can only do so much.  Raids were made back in the summer on certain gangs and arrests were made. The punks were let go on bail in 48 hours.  That is the problem….the legal system.  The system has been ruined by lawyers and non elected judges who have no accountability.  

The police know which gangs run and what areas in Toronto they claim territory.  Since the police can only do so much, I say call in the army and screw the legal system to catch them. Give them the power to get the job done without the red tape.  These dickless punks are more of a concern than terrorists.  Banning guns isn't going to solve anything.  Putting in harsh consequences will.

[AlleyViper]

It makes me sick. I don't want to turn this into a political debat, but I hope this opens a few eyes out East to see what kind of clusterf*ck the Liberals have turned this country into. The Canadian Legal System is a joke.

[Raptor]

It makes me sick. I don't want to turn this into a political debat, but I hope this opens a few eyes out East to see what kind of clusterf*ck the Liberals have turned this country into. The Canadian Legal System is a joke.

The sad thing is that there isn't anyone else stepping up to make it any better. This country isn't equipped to deal with Toronto and Vancouver because they are completely unlike anywhere else in canada.

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[Realboss]

It's funny that the government and law enforcement dropped the hammer on all of the biker gangs real quick when things started to get out of control.  The two big gangs in the Niagara region still haven't recovered.  So why can't they contain these other gangs?