JoeCanuck
General Section => General Joe Talk => Topic started by: g.ijoecollecter3400 on October 15, 2013, 11:29:52 PM
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I was poking around ebay earlier tonight and discovered something new about the 25th ann. cobra Eel figure. Apparently there is also a " varaint ". Just like the mail away Doc figure, the cobra Eel has 2 diff. versions. One with a #1 on the gun and another has #2 on the gun. The one with the #2 is the supposed " variant ". So i mossy on over to my collection and check to see witch Eels i have. Low and behold there a #2 on the gun. YIPPY right ?
Anyway, this lead me to search and try to find out how much more this supposed variant is worth compared to the regular #1 gun one. Surprisingly! LOL, there's some people on ebay trying to get 30$ for a figure that is exactly the same as its 8$ to 10$ ( #1 gun ) counterpart. But in the collecting world a variant is a variant is a variant i guess...? Me being the completist that i am i was happy to see that i have the supposed RARER version. And someday im gonna have to get me witchever Doc ( #1 or #2 ) that i don't have.
So in searching for the info. on the variant i came across an argument on hisstank.com. People where pissed off @ Hasbro for sending in figures to AFA. Hence making it available for Hasbro to sell you a 8.5 or 9 graded uncirculated figure for 89.99$. Others said that only vintage stuff should be graded. A lot of people agreed that the whole grading thing has gotten completly out of hand in the last few years. ( And i agree )
Anyway, it was a long argument with lots of back and forth.
Don't get me wrong i would love to be able to send every last figure and vehicle i own to AFA so that i can have there value go up 10 fold for no reason. And i would imagine @ the end of that process the value of my collection would be equal to or less then what i spent on sending then to be graded in the first place.
We are already seeing cases like this pop up. Take the sdcc 2008 black suite cobra commander graded @ 8.5 or 9. People used to ask 150$ and above for that. Now you can get one easy for 70$ - 80$. 80$ for one of those is basically what the thing cost and to get it graded.
Ok, so we know grading modern aint worth poop. That was almost a no brainer from the start. ( UNLESS you have anything 9.5 and above ). And still you have no garentee EVER that something is going to come back the grade you figure it might get. So it still a crap shoot right out of the gate.
THE POINT: ( Even though i dont collect vintage ) What gets me is the grading of the vintage stuff. How in the heck now-a-days is a vintage mosc collecter going to complete his or her collection...? Can you imagine being the guy that has sunk 10, 15, 20 years and god knows how much $$$$$$ into there collection, taking there time trying to find really nice ( not beat to hell ) versions of the vintage toys they need.
I mean just about anybody who has a half desent figure or vehicle has already sent it to AFA. And it now has a double or triple price tag then what it was ungraded.
Supposes that the collecter i speak of has 80% of everything vintage g.i joe ungraded, and wants to continue collecting and displaying, ungraded. What is that collecter to do...? Does he kick in the 3 times what he would pay for ungraded. And when it gets to him, crack the case open ? Or does he spend 10's of thousands getting the rest of his stuff graded...?
Again, i guess the point is. Eventually the only vintage mosc figures and vehicles you will be able to buy will be graded ones. You won't even have the option of collecting ungraded anymore. It's almost @ that point already.
Now, what is going to happen when ever last vintage MOSC figure and vehicle is graded.....? Ill tell you what...Having em graded ain't gonna be worth ANYTHING! Why..? Because there all graded.!!!!
The only next logical step to make your 10 GEM graded 1982 Snake Eyes better then my 10 GEM graded Snake Eyes is, we each send our figures in to AFA again and whoever's graded case grade's higher wins!!!!!! And so on and so forth till then end of time.
So to close, in my opinion grading is wrong. It just ruins the love and fun of collecting by jacking up prices. The only people that win in the grading scenario are people who resell the figures after they are graded. And AFA offcourse they win big time ( by convincing us to use a service we never needed in the first place ). Lets not forget we as collecter's can dictate the price of our toys in the secondary market place we all deal and live in.
WE HAVE THE POWER.
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AFA grading is pretentious garbage that's an excuse to jack prices.
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AFA grading is pretentious garbage that's an excuse to jack prices.
This. Absolutely this.
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AFA grading is pretentious garbage that's an excuse to jack prices.
This. Absolutely this.
Ditto.
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AFA grading is pretentious garbage that's an excuse to jack prices.
This. Absolutely this.
Ditto.
I agree as well.
However businesses are designed to make money, not help the collector finish his collection as cheaply as possible. It exists because there is a demand (or you could argue, they created a demand). Either way there are people who enjoy keeping high grade figures, not only reselling them (I've met them). Like you, I don't agree with them, but they might not agree with how I display my collection. Or they may think completionism and having every variant is a waste of money. Chacun sont gout, as LJ or Martin might say.
I would never use AFA (though I received 2 years ago in a trade) but I have no problem with people collecting what they want, in the way they want. I think scalpers at the store who take everything to resell are a bigger threat to "ruining fun" and "jacking up prices". If someone wants to encase their collection in plastic - go ahead. I want to display mine on a shelf. Some one else packs their away and stores it. Either way they are out of circulation and privately owned.
My only query is what will they do when that o-ring inevitably snaps?
Just my 2 cents...er....nickel. :)
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I'm no fan of AFA grading, but I agree with G4MVP, people can collect how they want, if they have the bones to collect and pay for only AFA graded items, go for it. I personally collect loose, cause I like to 'play' with my toys, and I can also replace those pesky o-rings when they dry out :P. I'm more concerned with scalpers who go into stores, buy out all of the hard to find figs, and then sell them on E-Bay or at local toy shows for a premium. AFA is for those who can afford it.
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Where this runaway train of jacked up Afa graded figures went wrong was in the begining when Afa first came out.
When a mint on card 1983 cobra officer ungraded was worth 300$. Grading should have only validated that the figure was worth so.
Not jack it to 850$ overnight.
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Slabbing toys is like wanting to have sex with a gorgeous super-model..........who you've just wrapped head-to-toe in plastic wrap.
Sure you could have some bragging rights, but it totally misses the real fun.....
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My problem with slabbing......well.........anything ........is that it ends up becoming a thing unto itself. The toy/comic is preserved in plastic to keep it's condition intact, but then.......what about the slab? The condition of the slab itself, over time become part of the intrinsic value of the slabbed item, because the presentation of the slab influences the appearance of the item inside. Doesn't matter what the grade or the assigned value of the contents are, if the slab has scuffs or buckles.......it's NOT going to be as valuable as a slab that doesn't have faults. Taking the item out to replace it with a fresh slab means the item has to be re-appraised and could take a hit to its condition.
So the answer to this is to.............oh, wait for it..........to slab the slabbed item.
And the stupid just snowballs from there.
That and you never actually get to "enjoy" the contents themselves..........you get to enjoy the slab. Yeah, that's a load of fun.
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I'm no fan of AFA grading, but I agree with G4MVP, people can collect how they want, if they have the bones to collect and pay for only AFA graded items, go for it. I personally collect loose, cause I like to 'play' with my toys, and I can also replace those pesky o-rings when they dry out :P. I'm more concerned with scalpers who go into stores, buy out all of the hard to find figs, and then sell them on E-Bay or at local toy shows for a premium. AFA is for those who can afford it.
This is why we have 60$ P.O.C Lowlights running around. LOL >:(
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It was all about ego and money in the beginning, and of course collectors bought into it like crazy.
Then the problems started. Completely sealed cases led to unexpected deterioration and discolouring. Then AFA branched out into loose items, then vintage and finally they started to get fooled, and found out, by knock-offs.
Is it worth it to you to pay a large amount of money to get an item graded, only to find out later that it may not be worth that much more? There is an article from Toyfare a few years ago, if I find it I'll post it, about this very topic and how even then prices were dropping.
Yes it is up to each individual collector as to what they find value in while collecting. However, there is a larger market at play and you can see more and more that the whole AFA grading thing has past it's prime. Yes there will always be valuable, rare items that go for a lot, but the days of people paying $1000+ for figures is pretty much done.
I still think back to the Ebay auction I watched about 2 years ago. This guy was auctioning off a MISB Wolverine (US version). It was not AFA graded, just in really nice condition. It went for over $3000!!!!! I just don't see how it could have gone for anymore by simply being graded. It was the absolute rarity of the item that I believe pushed it so high, and grading wouldn't have added enough extra value to offset the cost of getting it graded in the first place.
Then again, as others have said, to each there own.
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Canprime makes some really good points of how AFA is past its prime, but even with people catching on and seeing that buying graded figures is not a " great thing " like it once was the damage is non forever and will continue to forever be done as long as AFA stays in buisness.
Look @ the situation im facing right now trying to get a 25th ann. Yellow variant Stalker figure. None of my other figures are AFA'd so he would just look studid in this big plastic case next to my other joes. Also im not in the market for paying 220$ to 300$ for 8 or 8.5 grade of him either.
NOW. lets look @ my alternative. I'd have no problem finding one ungraded with a big dent, or a ripe on the card or a slightly unglued bubble for 120$. But I don't want that either. The reason those haven't been sent to be graded is because the owners know the would come back as 5's or 6's. And they will only be able to sell it for surprise, surprise 120$.
It a case of people having there cake and eating it too! And it rediculous!!! They are all to happy when they have a high grade figure and can jack up the value to 220$ to 300$ no problem. But when they get one not quite AFA worth they stick to the same price range as if the thing was MINT on card and ungraded.
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AFA, one of the big debates that seems to spark rage! Just like the loose vs carded collecting debate. :)
I don't own a single graded item in my collection. Having said that, I totally see the merit in the service. But with that comes the exploitation and the twisting of it into something it really wasn't meant to be. At least in my opinion. Obviously it's a business, and that is a primary purpose of the company. But the niche it filled that I could see myself using it for is for actually verifying the authenticity of something. For example, if I wanted to buy a vinyl caped Jawa, or a straight arm snake eyes. In either of these cases I might not be confident enough in my knowledge of the item to truly authenticate it. Sure I can read online about all the things to look out for, but how many vinyl caped Jawas have I held in my hand in my lifetime? Maybe two. Therefore, as an insurance policy of sorts, I might look to AFA to help. So it totally makes sense to pay a premium for AFA graded items because you're paying for that authentication service and that peace of mind.
Perhaps this is the world we live in though, where there are a lot of collectors lacking confidence in authenticity. This is understandable when you're buying online. How can you really authenticate an item over the internet? So there is enough demand from folks wanting authenticity, and I guess they're willing to pay that much of a premium for that peace of mind. I'm not, but that's what the market it. What I don't understand is the people who buy things just for the sake of it being AFA graded. If you have the knowledge and ability to know if something is legit, the service is essentially useless. Which is also why, for the most part, grading modern items baffles me. Completely pointless.
Anyway, I think AFA has merit, but unfortunately the market has pushed it into something a bit absurd.
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AFA, one of the big debates that seems to spark rage! Just like the loose vs carded collecting debate. :)
I don't own a single graded item in my collection. Having said that, I totally see the merit in the service. But with that comes the exploitation and the twisting of it into something it really wasn't meant to be. At least in my opinion. Obviously it's a business, and that is a primary purpose of the company. But the niche it filled that I could see myself using it for is for actually verifying the authenticity of something. For example, if I wanted to buy a vinyl caped Jawa, or a straight arm snake eyes. In either of these cases I might not be confident enough in my knowledge of the item to truly authenticate it. Sure I can read online about all the things to look out for, but how many vinyl caped Jawas have I held in my hand in my lifetime? Maybe two. Therefore, as an insurance policy of sorts, I might look to AFA to help. So it totally makes sense to pay a premium for AFA graded items because you're paying for that authentication service and that peace of mind.
Perhaps this is the world we live in though, where there are a lot of collectors lacking confidence in authenticity. This is understandable when you're buying online. How can you really authenticate an item over the internet? So there is enough demand from folks wanting authenticity, and I guess they're willing to pay that much of a premium for that peace of mind. I'm not, but that's what the market it. What I don't understand is the people who buy things just for the sake of it being AFA graded. If you have the knowledge and ability to know if something is legit, the service is essentially useless. Which is also why, for the most part, grading modern items baffles me. Completely pointless.
Anyway, I think AFA has merit, but unfortunately the market has pushed it into something a bit absurd.
Thats what i was saying when i talked about a 300$ cobra officer becoming a 850$ cobra officer overnight just because it got an 85 grade from AFA. In all logic it should have become a 300$ + whatever it cost to grade it cobra officer, thats all. Just to give the seller a better ability to get his 300$ for his toy, to have it absolutly proven authentic, no question.
Where it all went wrong was all it took was that one guy ( who could afford it ) to pony up 850$ for it, and all hope was lost from then on. Not just for that figure but all other vintage 85 graded items. And it funny because it seams like there is a unwritten rule that if your item gets an 8 grade double the value plus add the cost of grading. If it gets 8.5 triple it. If it gets 9 multiply by 5. And a 9.5 is multiplied by a minim. of 10.
And did you know by law in Arizona if you have a 10 GEM mint action figure, don't matter witch one. You have the right to ask the price tag of: There first born son. ;D
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I dislike slabbing ( as I have doubtlessly made clear) but I think the hobby leaped towards ruination with the various published prices guides. Those set the snowball tumbling downhill.
I remember selling off some of my collection at a then-local toy show. Had a table, a good mix of stuff.....but I wasn't sure how I exactly wanted to price the stuff. When I sell at such shows, my goal is not to profit at all costs.......it's to clear the table, to not have to haul the stuff home. Still, making some money is always nice, so on one occasion I used a Wizard price guide, and when asked about an item I had, I consulted it to get a ballpark of what to ask for. In sight of the curious customer.
Big mistake.
The two fellows declined to buy that time, but about 30 minutes later they came back with their own price guide......and they started shopping at my table.
And worse, they started challenging my prices. Something that I marked as being $30 was "only $20, according to the guide" and so on. I explained that I was not a dealer, that the stuff was from my own private collection and just being cleared out.
They didn't listen. They picked out about 5-6 things, consulted the guide on every one and offered me the "guide price" which was less than what I had marked on the items. They thought the price guide was some sort of all-abiding rule of law for pricing stuff. of course, I didn't accept their offers, which didn't sit too well with them. They demanded I take their lower offer and TOLD ME I HAD TO BECAUSE THE GUIDE SAID THAT IS WHAT THE PRICES WERE!!
Oy vey!
In the midst of my going cross-eyed with these bone-heads, the dealer beside me leaned over to them and told them the price guide is just a "suggested" value and no-one is obligated to buy OR sell at the listed prices. Well, that rattled around in their heads like a pin ball, and they let the stuff on the table and wandered off......but they consulted that thing at every other stop they made in that room.
Just nuts.
I don't discourage anyone from seeking a bargain, nor do I think anyone should be criticized for asking a king's ransom for something either---to each their own. But with such arrangements, trying to goad the price up or down because some arbitrary book or agency calls the tune....uh-uh. I don't accept that.
That same toy show, I got both heat and kudos from fellow dealers for selling a then-hard to find toy: a Talking T-2 Terminator--the one with the half robot, half-Arnie head. I had bought the thing for $29 or something, off the toy store shelves at the time. They quickly became rare. One dealer was asking $200 for his in the box, mine was loose for $50. A little kid and his dad were nosing around and the kid took a shine to this thing. He would look at it, wander away, come back and look some more......and so on.
I finally asked him if he was interested in it, and he said he only had $20.
I said..........hmmmmn. Asked him if he was stuff browsing with his dad. He said he was, so I told him, when they were done to come back and see me.
So, about an hour later he comes back, and I asked him if he was ready to deal. He told me he had only $15 then, but had a couple of things in his hands.
So I asked him a bit about Terminator, if he was a fan and stuff and he gushed about the characters and the movie and stuff. Obviously a fan.
So I decided what to do: I asked how much he had left?
He told me $15.
I asked him if he and his Dad had had lunch yet. He said they were going to eat after the show.
Then I hit the kid with my line: "I tellya what I'm gonna do....."....
You got $15? He goes "yeah..." I got how about $12?
He looks puzzled.
I go " Okay, okay.......how's about about $10??"
He's confused, looks at his dad, Dad looks at me-I grin.
"Okay, okay.......you drive a hard bargain young man, how about $7??"
Other dealers are watching now. The kid knows he's being put on, but is unsure.
"Alright, ( with a big dramatic sigh) ya beat me to the ground........how's about $5? Ya got a five dollar bill??" He does.
"Sold to you for $5!"
Dealer beside me smiles, shakes his head. Dad is impressed, thanks me. Kid takes his new toy in hand in awe. I tell the kid: "but there's just ONE condition!!" He looks at me.
" You have to take your dad out to lunch with the $10 you have left, as thanks for him bringing you here today. Deal?"
Deal, he shakes on it. They both go off happy as clams.
Later the dealer with the $200 boxed Terminator across the room( still unsold ) walks over to my table and sarcastically "thanks me for undercutting him".
Okay, so maybe I did, but I think he missed the bigger point.
There is no AFA grading that can make a deal or an item like that more "valuable" to a collector than someone selling something heart to heart.
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We should get together and make our own price guide for AFA only figures.
" oh you have 83' scarlett graded a solid 8 " " guide says 93.50$, sell it to me for that " ;D
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Never been a fan of AFA. The grades I can live with. But it's the prices that people come with after the grading process that has never made any sense. Also AFA is completely useless for foreign items, where the rarity will often outweigh the grade.
Back in around 2005, it was reported that AFA graded a resealed item, that was sent by some one on purpose to see what would happen. Make of that what you will.