JoeCanuck
General Section => General Joe Talk => Topic started by: SnowHawk on January 09, 2012, 08:40:21 AM
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Ok, I know the title is a bit harsh... but I am getting sick and tired of seeing this kind of stuff.
Yesterday I was at the Burlington Toy Show (I finally got to meet The Mike in person and had a good chat with him). On the way home, the family and I decided to stop at the Toys R Us at Sherway Gardens. While checking out the G.I. Joe stuff I noticed there was a Cobra 5 pack from 2008. I haven't seen these around in a while and I thought it may be a good pick up for my friend who was with us, who is just starting to amass a small G.I. Joe collection.
I opened the cardboard cover to look at the figures and I went ballistic. Someone had been into the set before and what they did was disgusting.
1) Storm Shadow's sword was missing
2) Baroness was missing and was replaced with a Scarlett painted black with an Elite Viper head
3) Cobra Commander... surprisingly untouched
4) Zartan's head was missing and was replaced with Maverick from Wolverine movie toys
5) Viper's legs were missing and swapped with Heavy Duty from Valor vs Venom
I scanned the UPC and the set came up at $34.99.
This is disgusting. First off it should have been in the clearance rack for $10 or something like that. Secondly, Toys R Us should have inspected the package since it is obvious that something doesn't look right. Thirdly, it goes back to my old theory. IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD G.I. JOE, FIND ANOTHER HOBBY. It looks bad on all of us who collect G.I. Joe. When stuff like this happens we won't be able to get new product in the future because the store won't stock new items.
If somebody did this to grab a couple body parts for customs, I hope toy karma gets them in the end. I think there is no excuse for pulling a stunt like this. If you are looking for a couple body parts for a custom, spend the cash and buy the figure. If you don't want the extra pieces, post them somewhere (like ebay or here) to get rid of your unwanted stuff.
Sorry about the rant, but I am getting tired of seeing stuff like this.
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Yesterday i was with my son at Toys R Us in in Kitchener. I was walking past the Thundercats figures and one of the Lion-O figures caught my eye. I don't know what it was but I had to stop and inspect it. The mini sword of omens was replaced with some sort of plastic flame or fire ball. The left arm attachment for the golden shield was removed, as well as the large sword and one of the replaceable arms. I looked at the package to see how they got in and the had simply cut the piece of tpae at the bottom, pulled the inside box out, removed the parts they wanted and slid it back in and put a new piece of tape over the old one.
This miffed me. So I picked it up, along with a good Lion-O figure and went the the customer service desk and explained in detail to them what was missing, how it was done and why it was done. Not only did I want to educate them, but my son as well.
Shop lifting is wrong. There is no "grey" area in this. Theft is theft, and those who do it are scum, plain and simple.
I'm with you on this SnowHawk.
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Ya this always makes me sad. Seriously, if the person cant afford a 10 dollar figure, and has to spend the time to figure swap or steal it, they should spend that time on getting a job or something. They obviously have issues they should resolve instead of resorting to this sort of immaturity.
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These kinds of crimes have been discussed at length in toy forums for many years, and there's no viable solution for it. Large retailers cannot keep track of items like this, for the most part, because staff have to have specific training or knowledge to spot the swaps. With ten's of thousands of different products in a typical large retail store, its nigh-impossible to know every item intimately enough to spot items like this.
There's two ( inadequate) consolations to this: the amount of activity with the crime is usually quite low. If you have a swapper in your area, they likely stick to certain kinds of toys and that is all they target. Yes, it can be frustrating seeing swapped toys placed back on the shelves.........but really, its not your problem. Its the retailers and the customer that buys the returned/swapped goods. Caveat Emptor and all that.
Secondly, there are stores that are hiring collectors for some positions. Toys R US is one that is increasingly employing this strategy, AND one of the reasons is for the intimate knowledge collectors have. I have a family member working at TRU, soon to be promoted to a World Sales Leader position, within the store. Already they have been twice called upon to inspect returned goods to see if items were swapped, and in both cases confirmed this. That means the swapper was denied the return, identified as a swapper and banished from the store. Of course, they probably drove over to a Walmart, Zellers or what-not and returned their crap right afterwards without any problem.
Now.......that is ONE store, in ONE city making strides. I'm told that there has been some discussion about stores sharing their info on swappers/shop-lifters etc with other retailers, but there might be some legal obstacles to that.
This is the only way the problem can be addressed. One store at a time, one swapper at a time.
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its not your problem.
On this I must respectfully disagree. While I did not end up with the Lion-O toy in question, I have a 5 year old son and 75 year old mother who likes to shop for him. What's to say he doesn't end up with a Corp figure in a Skystriker jet sometime? Then that would leave me having to either explain to him that he was ripped off and possible face tears, or go along with it and pretend it's the right toy. I would probably do the latter.
But if not me to point this out to them, then who? If I saw someone breaking into a car at night would I do something about it? I sure would. I might not go face to face with the car thief for fear they might have a gun, but I would call 911 on my cell phone and tell them I saw smoke coming from a car on the road, located at whatever the address was. I'd also probably try to take a picture from a distance.
The rest of what you said is great. I'm happy TRU is hiring collectors into the store to help with this sort of thing. Lets be honest, saying your a toy collector doesn't open many jobs in the real world, but if you can use your passion to help stop theft, I'm all for it. ;)
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On this I must respectfully disagree. While I did not end up with the Lion-O toy in question, I have a 5 year old son and 75 year old mother who likes to shop for him. What's to say he doesn't end up with a Corp figure in a Skystriker jet sometime? Then that would leave me having to either explain to him that he was ripped off and possible face tears, or go along with it and pretend it's the right toy. I would probably do the latter.
Here's the thing: would he know the difference? Sure, you know it because you are savvy and aware about toys, but would child receiving the item truly care, or would they just be happy they got a figure to play with the vehicle? They do take their cues from the parent.
There's a third option if there's an upset--you can return the item and get the genuine article. Therein you still have control.
A possible fourth option is to not buy toys at a large retailer, because boutique retailers ( such as local comic shops and collectible stores) tend to be much more aware about their stock and what its supposed to be.
Most people, like 75 yr old grandmas, are not toy savvy--like most kids--so really......as the retailers see it, as long as the toy appears to be "intact", its considered sellable. Again, caveat emptor applies here, as it does in EVERY purchase transaction. That is why the toy was put back on the shelves in the first place, and will LIKELY go back on the shelves again even though you may point out that its been swapped.
It irks you and me, but that is the practical truth of it. I don't like swaps any more than the next collector, but there's really not much that can be done about it.
When I see swaps, I just make note of it in my head that there's a swapper working in the area. There's no point in my taking the items to customer service, because its often a $20 ( or less) item.....and in their daily take that is miniscule--and the response to it by the staff is nonchalant ( more often than not). Usually, a swapper works quite timidly doing only a couple of items at most under the risk of getting caught.
The real idiots get brazen and start to commit other crimes, which end up being their downfalls. Of course, the worst thing is a retailer hit by more than one swapper at a time which I have seen down in the States numerous times.
Also, I hope everyone reading this and other toys forums realizes that these swappers are fellow forum members/fellow collectors. They use toy forums as intel, finding out stores that have stock, get hit by swapping, and have toy collectors working at them. Toy forums offer such rich intel on what is out there and where, that ignoring the info would be a right hazard if one were to take on this crime.
You and I might even be rubbing elbows with swappers and not know it.
If you want to do stuff to thwart swappers, here's a list of things:
--Don't do area reports. Telling others what is out there and where it is, is tipping off not only swappers but scalpers too. Sharing the info can be useful to fellow collectors, but its uncontrolled info--you cannot qualify WHO will see it.
--Deliberately mislead with your info. Say that a completely different store, all the way across town "has the stuff", instead of the store you bought it from. This is a ethical choice one can make--as its somewhat dirty pool. The reasoning behind this is if it makes it frustrating for a swapper chasing false leads, then maybe they'll abandon the hobby because they hit too many dry wells.
--Additionally tell people that you, or "someone you know" is know working at a given retailer and that they are toy savvy, even if this is not truly the case. Its a lie that can work against swappers.
Again, a swapper doesn't want to risk getting caught or denied a return and they will likely not risk that. Swappers tend to only target large retail chains because of the ambivalence and the relative ease in making returns.
I'm not saying these are great or even desirable actions to take--because they CAN impact fellow (innocent) collectors, as well as swappers.
I have chosen to no longer share area reports myself--which grates against my instinct to share the hobby I keenly love.
I cannot think of anything else to do that would work any better.
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Toy companies should all make it a standard effort to provide at least one big picture of the content somewhere on the package, that depicts clearly the actual look of the toy and its components, to protect both the consumer and the retailer.
As a consumer we should always make it our personal responsability to make sure that the item that we buy is exactly the one that is advertised. As well, I think that every retailer should have the right to assume that the consumer is aware of what he is buying. If a package is previously opened, the consumer should ask a clerk to inspect it before buying it. If a package is returned, the retailer should be able to tell upon close inspection if the content was altered regardless of who did it, and keep a record of who returns the swapped goods. I feel sorry to say this but anyone who returns swapped goods should be at least kept on a network list that all stores may update/ share the information especially in the case they find out that it's always the same person doing the same thing at other places. When accepting to issue a refund, I think it would become necessary for retailers to ask the consumer to see his proof of ID and address, for cross reference purposes. I don't know if there are any legal implications that would prevent this from becoming a reality now, but this is not like asking anyone for his or her passport or credit card, so I don't see why it couldn't become feasible in the future. I think that retailers should have the right to protect themselves against cases that a particular consumer is behaving in a way that he abuses of their system. Swapping goods once they are purchased is fundamentaly a disguised way of stealing under the radar and businesses should care more about it if they aren't already.
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Toy companies should all make it a standard effort to provide at least one big picture of the content somewhere on the package, that depicts clearly the actual look of the toy and its components, to protect both the consumer and the retailer.
They often do this very thing. It serves the purpose of giving consumers an idea of what the contents are within the package AND gives retailers the same info for returns. But there's that one little disclaimer line that defeats the whole thing : " Contents within may not be as illustrated due to changes in manufacturing" or words to that effect.
As a consumer we should always make it our personal responsability to make sure that the item that we buy is exactly the one that is advertised. As well, I think that every retailer should have the right to assume that the consumer is aware of what he is buying.
This is the very cornerstone principle of "caveat emptor" ( let the buyer beware) at work. Its the basis of our commerce laws, and derives from British common laws. Its the willfull and conscious establishment of a contract between two parties, where both clearly understand the agreement being entered into. Under the law, the ACT of bringing an item to the till and offering money for it means that the buyer accepts the goods as is, and is willing to purchase them. The seller can therefore just accept the currency and thus close the deal, cementing the contract in law. All the other histrionics around a sale are only subject to the agreement of both parties--and there are specific moments, a specific order that must be followed/considered to apply to or DENY the agreement. The time for a buyer to ask questions about the goods is BEFORE money is offered, for example. Once money has been offered to, and accepted by the seller the contract is considered sealed and under the law
the seller is not always obligated ( depending on the jurisdiction) to reverse or amend the contract.
That seller do this is often just a customer service policy, not a legal requirement. it truly is " you pays yer money, you takes yer chances", and if its not what you think it is, or should be, don't buy!
I feel sorry to say this but anyone who returns swapped goods should be at least kept on a network list that all stores may update/ share the information especially in the case they find out that it's always the same person doing the same thing at other places
Retailers cannot do that, because of the presumption of innocence
principle within our criminal court system. Retailers can maintain and update a list for their own use, but they cannot share it because the perp has not been convicted within a court of law on the matter. I believe this is a part of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms now as well.
When accepting to issue a refund, I think it would become necessary for retailers to ask the consumer to see his proof of ID and address, for cross reference purposes. I don't know if there are any legal implications that would prevent this from becoming a reality now, but this is not like asking anyone for his or her passport or credit card, so I don't see why it couldn't become feasible in the future. I think that retailers should have the right to protect themselves against cases that a particular consumer is behaving in a way that he abuses of their system. Swapping goods once they are purchased is fundamentaly a disguised way of stealing under the radar and businesses should care more about it if they aren't already.
The problem with this is that its annoying and inconvenient to the customers, and since its not a mandatory requirement to provide ID, the store that insists on it has a disadvantage against the store that doesn't. A lot of retailers refrain from this kind of policy, simply because the sales margins are so slim that implementing such a policy would give their competition the means to lure customers away.
Often times, the losses are so small in terms of dollars that its easier to just eat the loss than to police it and lose/erode the customer base.
IIRC, Target stores in the USA did, for a while, have a policy where toys and action figures considered to be "collectible" were subject to purchase limits AND were restricted in returns. It didn't last very long because other retailers simply did not enforce a similar policy and customers chose to buy from them instead of Target. Accordingly, the policy ended after a short while and Target went back to a return policy the same as its competitors.
That is why nothing much has been done, or ever will be done about this sort of thing.
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I've seen an Ashiko cycle at Zellers before that was repacked with some dollar store bike and figure. Heck, the repacking didn't even bother to tie down the bike and just let it rattle all over the box.
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This is a topic that always gets me steamed. I honestly don't think there is a real solution to it.
1) These individuals working at retail lack the knowledge....we are collectors so we know what we are looking at
2) People will complain to no end just to return stuff and if you are working there, you just want to get rid of this person
3) There's just so much variety of toys and it's not like returning a microwave....the person working there most times does know the difference between darth vader and robocop. Once a buddy and I were at WalMart and he wanted to buy a joe pack that had a fig missing. We went to the service center to see if they could do something for him and the lady told her manager that "the darth vader figure was missing"
4) I tend to think most swap outs and theft are from lame adults...and there's no way to get rid of them
5) As arrow pointed out, unless you are a collector you don't always know what is missing or what has been swapped. So if you are a parent or even a child receiving the gift, you don't always know. So, eventually these things just get sold.
The WalMart and Zellers closest to my work always has swapped figs and accessories. But even worse is the constant theft I see there. I actually see this at all WalMarts and Zellers. Every time I pass by these places all I see in the toy aisles are ripped open packaging just laying there and this is across all toy lines...hot wheels, lego, transformers, marvel....even that line with the skateboards.
If people want to risk getting arrested for stealing $10 or even $2...oh well.
My brother bought a huge lego set for my nephew and some douche stole all the figs and resealed it and returned it. It obviously was not a accident at the factory as the bags inside were ripped open to get the figs.
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If people want to risk getting arrested for stealing $10 or even $2...oh well.
Exactly, if anything sums up the idiocy behind swapping, you just said it perfectly.
The perps never know if a store all of a sudden hires staff that can ID the returns, or gets a shortages specialist looking at things. All it takes is one hard-ass looking at returns and spotting a swapper and BOOM.....a $2 theft or fraud can easily turn into $200 or more in fines. Or worse.
The perp I mentioned at my local TRU doesn't come into the store anymore, I'm told.
His anonymity is blown, AND THAT'S ALL IT TAKES.
4) I tend to think most swap outs and theft are from lame adults...and there's no way to get rid of them
Safe bet: they ARE adults, very likely with impressive collections, very likely to be army builders to a degree. They are constantly fussing over costs--are cheap-ass-as-all-get-out ( which is why they swap, of course) and they are even "proud" of their frugality.
The sad thing is, with the same kind of effort they put into their crimes.....they can do other genuinely legit things that can "zero" or reduce their collecting costs to the same degree. But, unfortunately, as a lot they are too stupid to figure that out for themselves. I think it just speaks volumes as to what kind of people they are.
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Well said Madman & Arrow, you both got a timbit for beeing able to formulate very objectively the ongoing problems with our hobby.
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Well said Madman & Arrow, you both got a timbit for beeing able to formulate very objectively the ongoing problems with our hobby.
Thank you, amigo. Words and timbit much appreciated.
I hemmed and hawed over what I'm about to write because it might tip off some swappers, but they might well seize upon this "opportunity" anyways......and writing about this might also give fellow collectors a heads-up to pass along to their own friends and families.
There's a couple of retailers in Canada that are going to disappear soon. One is likely going to scale down to a very small presence on the retail scene before dying off, and the other is going to transition into another retailer presence. Both are prime targets for swappers.
They are Sears and Zellers.
Sears is going to go the way of the dinosaurs and dodo birds--they are going to be starting to close stores all over the place. They don't carry many action figures and what they do carry is pretty ho-hum. Zellers is a similar target, but they'll likely carry their selection right up until the turn-overs in each store locations. The problem here is that as these things come to pass, the staff will be pared down and its expected a lot will stop giving a damn. Quite a few are going to lose their jobs after all. Now, I'm sure they have more than a few folks that take their jobs seriously and conduct themselves professionally, but there's enough staff that won't give a crap from this point on because of the inevitable lay-offs.
That means there's likely to be much less concern about returns because, hey, after a certain point Zellers is going to cease to exist as a retail entity. That also means that swappers will have a fertile feeding ground with whatever they can find.
Cynically speaking, I would expect to see a considerable increase in swapping at Zellers over the next couple of years, certainly in toys, and in others goods--but toys is where it'll impact us.
Sears is less of a concern here, because their toy departments are pathetic at best, and they don't often get in the "hot stuff".........but, well, you'd be surprised sometimes. They do occasionally stock a few trendy toy items, and sometimes they can be a source for one-off finds.
The thing is they are often traditionally shopped at by "grandmas" and relatives who are not toy savvy--hence the heads-up intended here. So, if you shop in those circles, if you know folks that shop ( or who shop for toys FOR YOU) in those circles, then just keep an eye open. This may or may not come to pass, and may/may not be a problem. But in the interest of sharing hobby info that serves us a benefit......well, share it as you see fit.
No more timbits required. ;-D
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Sears does stink. I'd do their toy buying for free.
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Not related to toys, but related to swapping:
http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120119/bc_steele_ipad_scam_mules_investigation_120119/20120119?hub=BritishColumbiaHome
These are very sophisticated crimes, and "mules" can be used to make any kind of return, leaving the actual fraudster "clean" to keep perpetuating their crimes.
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Possible solution down the road?
http://toynewsi.com/index.php?itemid=18200
3-D packaging.
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Possible solution down the road?
http://toynewsi.com/index.php?itemid=18200
3-D packaging.
Huh. That is really cool Pete. Thanks for sharing.
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not much use if you don't own a smartphone though.
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A possible solution would be to use holographic tape like the one they use to seal video game cases.
If the official seal is broken, store shouldn't accept returns and customers shouldn't buy the product.
Might be simpler than 3d packaging.
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not much use if you don't own a smartphone though.
I think a store can afford one if they want to cut down on this unethical practice.
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A possible solution would be to use holographic tape like the one they use to seal video game cases.
If the official seal is broken, store shouldn't accept returns and customers shouldn't buy the product.
Might be simpler than 3d packaging.
What happens if the toy is damaged? What happens if a part is missing? You can't punish a customer like that.
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I'm still with Pete. What they should include is holographic bar code to scan and have a screen at the return desk. The bar code should feed the screen at the return desk the price of item and a quick over view of what is included in the package. That would stop people from putting corps figures in G.I.Joe packs but might not stop toy swapping scum from putting an old ARAH figure in place.
That and include a list what is suppose to be included in the package.
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Maybe they should do what Playmobil does and put a picture of the content of the packaging on the back.
Figure and accessories or the various parts in the case of a vehicle.
That way if the figure or accessory in the bubble/box isn't the same as the one shown on the back, then it should alert the store employee or a potential customer.