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[Jay]

I will give you Batman but that cartoon was closer to the 1980s style in terms of a visual perception.   Anime and computer animated stuff is garbage to me.  

You're welcome to think that but Reboot and Beast Wars were absolutely fantastic thanks to the sheer amount of body language 3D-animated characters could give us.

And Batman was totally not 80s in visual perception. It pretty much pioneered a simplistic, stylish visual style that made for fluid animation (something that would be carried out throughout the DCAU, as well as Teen Titans, Transformers Animated, Spectacular Spider-Man, etc), something that was completely absent from the cartoons of the 80s.

Also, what do you qualify as "anime"? Because I'm certain you grew up on a metric ton of anime in the 80s.
Robotech, Voltron, Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs, Battle of the Planets/G-Force...
(not to mention that a lot of 1980s cartoons, including GIJoe and Transformers, were animated by Japanese animation studios like Toei!)

[latinjoe22]

Nothing has beaten the 1980s style of cartoons.  

Ugh. Everything's beaten the 1980s style of cartoon, especially in the action genre. They were plagued with animation errors, had childish plots that at times failed to even make sense and they never even tried to make their villains menacing.

The 90s was when cartoons started being cool. Batman: The Animated Series, Beast Wars, ReBoot... mature storytelling that could be thoroughly enjoyed by child and adult alike. (Sadly, GIJoe was too busy trying to emulate Rob Liefeld with GIJoe Extreme to benefit from any of it)

As for Renegades... I'm not big on the faces but the style definitely looks to be lending itself nicely to action sequences... And the plot is definitely being kicked off in an interesting direction.
I'm looking forward to the debut!

If you are attempting to discredit the 80's cartoon show, I have to disagree with you.

There's a lot of shows you might not like from the 80's if you rewinded the clock, but heck some were unique from what arrived in the next decade. While you imply that 80's shows lacked a serious approach, who said a kids' show was supposed to fill this function? Most of them were cheesy but trust me, they were very original for us. The shows that aged extremely well I find were Droids, Gi joe, Thundercats, Silverhawks, Mask, Transformers and  others. Sure they're not perfect and still smell the 80's to some extent, but they had that little extra that made them different from the rest, and hence made them modern. Batman is to the 90's what Gi joe or Transformers was to the 80's IMO. I watched many shows from the 90's and let me tell you, it reeked of many characters just showing off to others that they sound cool by the way they talk. But hey, I'm pretty sure that the producers who made these cartoons thought that's what the kids would relate to better than the cheesy lines from the 80's. Which one's worse you think?  :wink: None IMO.

As for GI joe Renegades, I'm sure that It's worth seeing, so I'll definitely wait to see it first before posting more about it  :cobra:

[B]

I'm interested in it. Just hoping either teletoon or ytv picks it up. I always have no expectations, because I know what I want may not appeal to everyone, so I'm keeping an open mind.

[morgardee]

Ugh. Everything's beaten the 1980s style of cartoon, especially in the action genre. They were plagued with animation errors, had childish plots that at times failed to even make sense and they never even tried to make their villains menacing.

I will give you Batman but that cartoon was closer to the 1980s style in terms of a visual perception.   Anime and computer animated stuff is garbage to me.  

+1.

Beast Wars was lacking any decent characters that I could connect with or bond with. 80's characters, while the plot might be a bit silly at times had characters that people really bonded with and fell in love with. Unless it's a 30 second commercial, it really doesn't matter what it looked like but what the characters mean to people.

Reboot was alright but I didn't follow it religiously. What I do recall from reboot is thinking "Man, this show is way too goofy". Tell me those two dim wit guys that worked for Mega byte didn't of cheese or that that angle hasn't been done 100 time before by better characters.

When it's a G.I. Joe message board who's core and majority members are 80's fans, coming into a thread and bashing the 80's line and cartoon is not going to gain a favorable reaction from most. 

[Jay]

I'm not really sure what you're looking for in "decent characters you could connect with", but Beast Wars, thanks to its more limited cast, managed to help you connect with the characters far more. Rattrap was the snarky guy, but he was also the pessimistic one, the ressourceful one and the runt of the litter, sizewise. Cheetor was the youthful one, headstrong and brash, but unlike how that archetype was used in the 80s, he actually learned from his mistakes. Optimus Primal was the captain, and unlike the 1980s Optimus Prime, he wasn't a Supreme Commander and constantly had to deal with insubordination. He was also great at thinking on the fly, to the point that his motto's unofficially been "Sometimes, crazy works." Then there's Rhinox, being both a brilliant mind AND a giant bruiser, complete with Chainguns Of Doom. In spite of their differences, he had a strong friendship with Rattrap. And then there's Dinobot, the "Worf" of the bunch, a mighty, proud warrior who defected from the opposite side and whose viewpoints and way of life often clashed with his fellow Maximals's. At the same time, he provided the Maximals with an insight to the Predacons's machinations. And with Rattrap's distrust of him, and his utter dislike of Rattrap, you had tons of great interactions between the two.

I really don't see any characters with that level of depth in Sunbow. At best you had Rodimus and his growth as a leader, but that got cut short because boring old Optimus Prime had to come back. As for Joe... I dunno, Jack Nicholson-esque Shipwreck was a little fun at times but otherwise they were all cookie cutters beyond a vocal quirk here and there or Beachhead's jerkishness.

[morgardee]

And this is where the age difference shows. When the original cartoons (Transformers an G.I. Joe) were on the air and we were all running home after school and talking about "last nights cool show" with our grade school friends, you were still a twinkle in your parents eye.  :wink:

You were born around '84, correct? So by the time you could really understand these shows and appreciate things like characters would put you around 89 -90 (give or take). So of course the shows you grew up with were the best in your opinion.

I work with a guy who is 22. Dude is very smart and all around fun guy, but he loves the Beast Wars over the original Transformers show. We've compared the two a few times and what it all comes down to is it's personal connection to each of us in relation to out childhood memories.

There is no way you are ever going to convince me that Beast Wars is better then the original Transformers. It won't happen. Just like I won't be able to change your opinion either. We could banter back and forth on different points and both of us could easily strip down the other guy favorite character. Nothing will change because it's how we related to them when we grew up.

That being said, this is my final defense of G1 over Beast Wars:

No matter what you say about Beast Wars it will always be lacking to the original show for one glaring absence as far as characters goes: Starscream (with Chris Latta). That little cameo he did when he possessed Waspinator was the second best thing about Beast Wars and far too short lived. The best thing about Beast Wars was when they found the arc and all the Autobots asleep. Then there was that Ravage angle. Funny how all the best episodes of that show were about G1.

[bandonov]

Action:[ Standing Ovation ]

I'm with morgardee on this, I love the orginal G1 TF to death, my other favourite 80's cartoons were Danguard Ace and Grandizer!  Not sure if people remember these but they are near and dear to my heart!  Not that I dislike Beast Wars, just never got used to the concept.

[Jay]

And this is where the age difference shows. When the original cartoons (Transformers an G.I. Joe) were on the air and we were all running home after school and talking about "last nights cool show" with our grade school friends, you were still a twinkle in your parents eye.  :wink:

You were born around '84, correct? So by the time you could really understand these shows and appreciate things like characters would put you around 89 -90 (give or take). So of course the shows you grew up with were the best in your opinion.

Age schmage. I grew up on the Generation One and GIJoe cartoons same as you. Syndicated reruns and all that. Also the Generation 2 re-airings of Transformers. Plus there was that Transformers: The Movie videocassette that was an incredibly common rental of mine.

I work with a guy who is 22. Dude is very smart and all around fun guy, but he loves the Beast Wars over the original Transformers show. We've compared the two a few times and what it all comes down to is it's personal connection to each of us in relation to out childhood memories.

Except I was no longer a child when Beast Wars debuted. I was 12.
Still managed to hook me.

Either way, I don't judge anything by nostalgia filter. I never saw any third-season episodes of Transformers as a child. But when asked which episodes are the best, I always end up plucking them out of the third. Webworld, Dark Awakening, The Burden Hardest To Bear... You know, that season all the "True and Honest G1 Fans" hate?

There is no way you are ever going to convince me that Beast Wars is better then the original Transformers. It won't happen. Just like I won't be able to change your opinion either. We could banter back and forth on different points and both of us could easily strip down the other guy favorite character. Nothing will change because it's how we related to them when we grew up.

Except, again, it's not. Maybe it is for you, but it's not for me.

That being said, this is my final defense of G1 over Beast Wars:

No matter what you say about Beast Wars it will always be lacking to the original show for one glaring absence as far as characters goes: Starscream (with Chris Latta). That little cameo he did when he possessed Waspinator was the second best thing about Beast Wars and far too short lived. The best thing about Beast Wars was when they found the arc and all the Autobots asleep. Then there was that Ravage angle. Funny how all the best episodes of that show were about G1.

Huh. I won't deny the merits of the episodes you mentionned, because they are indeed solid episodes. The entire show was a solid show. All it took for you to realize it was for it to refer to that thing your nostalgia filter adores.
Besides, the best moment of The Agenda isn't Ravage or seeing a bunch of Transformers sleeping. No. It's...
"Say goodbye to the universe, Maximals! The future has changed. Yessssss. The Autobots lose! Evil triumphs! And you...YOU NO LONGER EXIST!"

And last time I checked, Code of Hero had nothing to do with G1, and it is the single best Transformers episode ever written in the history of forever.
Oh yeah, and this episode, for some reason, was one of the few BW eps I didn't catch during its run. Going into subsequent episodes all I knew was "Dinobot died". I didn't get to see it till I was 20. And it was still more moving than Optimus Prime's death in the movie had ever been for me.

But, hey...





Back on the topic of Renegades, I just found another reason to get hyped.
Marty Isenberg is the story editor.
And he happens to be the genius that gave us the greatness of fiction that is Transformers Animated.
I'm now expecting great action, great characters and great fun. This show is going to rock.

As of right now... I guess I have two issues with Renegades, and they are ridiculously minor.
One is the faces. The animation style is nice and dynamic but the faces will take some getting used to. Hardly something for me to get worked up over.
The other is that Tomax and Xamot are voiced by the same person. That feels... I dunno, just lazy. I was always impressed by the fact that in the old Sunbow toon (OMG YES, it had some good points in its favor!), Corey Burton and Michael Bell each did one voice, and managed to match each other like that. Having one guy for the two just doesn't feel as impressive. Again, still hardly something significant enough to condemn the whole show over.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to this.

[bandonov]

Wow Jay, you really love your Beast Wars!   :lol:

[Jay]

Wow Jay, you really love your Beast Wars!   :lol:

Yes. Because it is, objectively, the best Transformers TV show ever produced.
Transformers Animated comes in at a VERY close second.

Given the creative team behind Renegades, I do believe I will end up considering it the "Beast Wars" or "Animated" of GIJoe television shows.

[morgardee]

Jay, you astound me. I've provided a diplomatic way and a closing comment to tie off this line of conversation as it might ruffle some peoples feathers.

Instead of excepting any of the logic I've offered, you've chosen to rip it by piece by piece to attempt to push your opinions on the board. I'm not speaking on behalf of the board when I say any of this.

But if you want to split hairs and go point / counter point, I'm pretty good at that game.  :wink:

Age schmage. I grew up on the Generation One and GIJoe cartoons same as you. Syndicated reruns and all that. Also the Generation 2 re-airings of Transformers. Plus there was that Transformers: The Movie videocassette that was an incredibly common rental of mine.

While you claim you grew up on G1 and ARAH the same as me, I highly doubt it. When ARAH toys were airing the first commercials it was simply amazing. Most of the cartoons around then were Battle of the Planets, Tom & Jerry, Flintstones, etc... Being someone who was born in '72 I was around to play with the 12 inch G.I. Joe and old enough to realize he was no longer on the shelves. When it came back and I first saw that comerical with army men flipping around bars and melting doors, my jaw dropped. We I got my first Grunt and Stalker figures for my 10th birthday I was thrilled because I didn't think they would be out in stores yet.

ARAH and G1 we cult hits. Look at the media and the resurgence in retro toys and TV shows. Beast Wars never have, and highly doubt never will have the same cult following as G1. I certainly don't expect Beast Wars to ever get a Hollywood movie made.

Except I was no longer a child when Beast Wars debuted. I was 12.
Still managed to hook me.

Either way, I don't judge anything by nostalgia filter. I never saw any third-season episodes of Transformers as a child. But when asked which episodes are the best, I always end up plucking them out of the third. Webworld, Dark Awakening, The Burden Hardest To Bear... You know, that season all the "True and Honest G1 Fans" hate?

Sorry man, I consider age 12 a child still. If you still get an allowance or make your sole income from a paper route and baby sitting, then your a child in my books.

As for the episodes you've listed I don't know the episode names. I can't go point to point with you on that so if you want to name episodes or even seasons then you've got me there. I also don't know anything about any "True and Honest G1 fan" hating season 3. I know the stuff with the head masters and the like were rather goofy, but still enjoyable to watch.

Except, again, it's not. Maybe it is for you, but it's not for me.

So you say and there is no way I can prove you train of thought is anything different then what you say but it's unlikely that stuff you grew up with as a child and memorized to the point where you can rattle off episode names like you have has nothing to do with what stuck a chord with you as a child. Sorry, I don't buy into it. If you are this passionate that you wouldn't except a friendly way out of a point / counter point discussion on the boards then this stuff has some personal meaning to you. Otherwise, why would you bother? Me, I enjoy a good debate every now and then.  

Besides, the best moment of The Agenda isn't Ravage or seeing a bunch of Transformers sleeping. No. It's...
"Say goodbye to the universe, Maximals! The future has changed. Yessssss. The Autobots lose! Evil triumphs! And you...YOU NO LONGER EXIST!"

Your opinion and you're welcome to it. It certainly wasn't the best thing for me. They could have easily reached the same conclusion to that story without having to spend as much time referencing the G1 show. If for some legal reason Beast Wars was not allowed to use the images of the G1 characters then they could have found other ways to reach the same outcome. No, what made it compelling TV was "Did you hear, the Beast Wars dudes found the Autobot Arc and they are still asleep".

Mick Folley would be proud of that cheap pop to get viewers.

And last time I checked, Code of Hero had nothing to do with G1, and it is the single best Transformers episode ever written in the history of forever.
Oh yeah, and this episode, for some reason, was one of the few BW eps I didn't catch during its run. Going into subsequent episodes all I knew was "Dinobot died". I didn't get to see it till I was 20. And it was still more moving than Optimus Prime's death in the movie had ever been for me.

Dinobot died? Huh, must have forgotten that fact as I did watch this show and had it all tape on my VCR. I got 2 points about that. First off, if Dinobot died I plain old forgot about it. Sure didn't forget about Optimus Prime dying. Second point, very weak name that totally plays of the G1 dinobots.

Again, Beast Wars had to draw heavily off the G1 one series and the only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of the rich history and characters created ion G1.

Look at the team leaders names for starters. The look at the lack of imagination that went into the second tier characters. Rat Trap. Rhinox, Cheetor, the aforementioned Dinobot? Those are names I would expect on a cheap knock off line. Then look at the names of the G1 team. Iron Hide, Ratchet, Sun Streaker. If they used the Beast Wars naming convention these guys would be "Tough red vanox", "Doctornator" and "Fast Yellow Caror" or something unimaginative like that.

You don't even want to start comparing characters between the two shows. I find it funny that the G1 characters in all their old school hand drawn 2 dimensional drawing we bigger then anything Beast Wars had to offer. Indeed, the "advanced graphics" of Beast Wars didn't do anything to help these very typical and flat characters. The most interesting guy on Beast Wars was Waspinator and that was because he had the most character flaws. Dinobot and his honour code was the next best but after that they got pretty flat.

G1 characters were full of character flaws. Mirage was vain, Starscream wanted power, Brawn thought he was one of the toughest guys going (yet it only took one good shot from Megatron in gun mode to take him out). Even in the movie, look at Arcee when she is dragging broken autobot bodies off the battle field and stop to put her hands under her mouth. And the there is Rumble and Frenzy. I loved seeing those guys in action. Two of the smallest decepticons out there, yet they can take down the biggest one of them all (Devastator) in less then 30 seconds and were the punks of the show.

Sorry, G1 brought us way more characters and handled them better then Beast Wars.

And that's not me being nostalgic.

[Sundance]

the Transformers comics are so much better than the shitty G1 cartoons. likewise, the ARAH comics are better than the toons.

Simon Furman and Larry Hama are as Gods to me.